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B
Riding the hobby horse?
Why are so many Christians so obsessed with always arguing for their “hobby horse,” strongly promoting their “pet project,” and/or getting on their “soapbox”? Why do many believers allow one doctrine, almost always a non-essential doctrine, so dominate their life?
1. Comment by ceseeley
Debbie and All;
Debbie, do you believe that the “Rapture of the Church as mentioned in 1Thess and the second coming of Christ as mentioned in the last part of Revelations are two separate events and why do you if you do?
2. Comment by Debbie
Ceseeley,
I do believe they are separate events. The first is based upon the Jewish wedding ceremony. The folllowing website explains the various parts and contracts of the ceremony and how it relates to the Lamb and the Bride. http://messianicfellowship.50webs.com/wedding.html
The second was a recent discovery in 2THESS 2:3. I read an article that was very intersting about this verse. “Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” The Greek word for “falling away” here bothers many scholars. (Apostasia) is a Greek combination word made of the preposition (apo): from and (stasey): to stand. If it is translated “falling away from” it should read (apo): from and (pipto): to fall or stumble. It is more likely the root word (aphistemi): to stand off from; depart from. (See Thayer Lexicon G868) This makes some much more sense. “Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a DEPARTING FROM first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; This was the way the first seven English translations were written, including the Wycliffe and Tyndale Bibles. Then if you go to verse 5; “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?” What did Paul discuss in 1THESS, apostasy? No, apostasy has been going on in the church since the first century. Apostasy is nothing new, but a “departing from” the earth of the church, that is something new and described in 1THESS 4:17 with the verb (harpazo): to snatch away in the clouds. These were theologians and Greek scholars such as Dr. Kenneth Wuest, so I am not making this up on my own. I will see if I can re-find the article. We get our term “rapture” from the Latin translation of the Greek (harpazo) which in Latin is “rapturo.” I am very much a pre-tribulation, pre-millenniel Christian. The second coming will resurrect those who are saved through the tribulation and the Old Testament saints who will populate the Millenniel Kingdom in human form, along with the angels and glorified saints. That is my belief and why I believe this way. I cannot stress enough the need to study original languages since once in a great while, something very important is lost in translation.
MARANATHA
3. Comment by ceseeley
Debbie and All;
Debbie, so why do some tie 1THESS 4:16-17 with Rev 20:5 “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.” and say that this is one event?
4. Comment by Douglas Summers
Hi Debbie, Comment #27.
I’m not sure what you are asking here. In the OT under the Law of Moses, These Laws never took our sins away (Heb.10:11). They were only covered till He came. (Heb.10:12-25). The righteous in the OT were those who acknowledged their sins by the letter of the Law. For that was what the law was for…to condemn men…not to save them. And for men, upon the guilt that the Law brought upon them, to, By type, admit there sins and see(through the sacrifices) The Grace of God. They looked forward to the coming of the Lord for culmination of the promises.
But are we covered now by the blood of Christ?… No! What was imputed to us is Christ righteousness. Christ lived under the Law, perfectly! He was unblemished of sin. (sinless). For a just God could not overlook sin. It’s penalty was death. So God was not only the Judge…but the justifier.
So Christ, as the Lamb without spot or blemish paid the penalty for us. Christ has been sent forth as a propitiation for us through faith. The judgment seat that was sprinkled with the atoning blood for the penalty of sin, has now become the mercy seat and a throne of Grace. Our sins and the demand of the Law have been met in Christ.
That demand has been met by Christ, now a just God can show mercy righteously…for all those who are in Christ Jesus. So, we are not covered…we are justified as sinless. For Christ does not stand before the Father making excuses for or weakness…but reminds the Father that he has satisfied the penalty of the just Law.
It is an eternal Mercy Seat..and we are born again of a new nature. If a son of God sins in the weakness of the flesh…and does not confess those sins…he loses fellowship with the father….not Salvation. Our sins are not covered..but are Gone! Past, present and future! The disobedient son is chastised…not sent to hell.
In Christ
Doug
5. Comment by Douglas Summers
Hi ceseeley,
In the “Rapture” of the Church. This is a meeting in the air. Christ does not stand upon the earth at this time. He is fulfilling the promise in Rev.3:10. to take His Church out before the “tribulation”.
During the “tribulation” Christ is on the Throne, fulfilling the judgments upon the earth. The “everlasting Gospel” is the gospel of God’s Judgment upon mankind. Christ returns to the earth in the Battle of Armageddon as King of Kings and Lord of Lords to reign a 1000 years. The First resurrection that started with the Church continues till the end of the 1000 years of peace.
After the 1000 years, Satan is loosed again, Yet Satan still is able to seduce men into thinking they are above God…Then the final battle, new heaven and new earth.
In Christ
Doug
6. Comment by Debbie
Ceseeley,
I don’t know why. I think alot of it has to do with pastor-teachers and what people are taught. That is how the Holy Spirit reveals Scripture to them I guess. One of my best friends believes that and it is not possible for me to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, unfulfilled prophecy to her. That is why I consider this a non-essential doctrine. The Holy Spirit speaks to my human spirit in positively asserting that the Bride must be removed from wrath and prepare herself for the wedding ceremony in REV 19. I want to give you this thought…is there a difference between a resurrection and a glorification? For those not found written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, their first resurrection is in REV 20:5. One of my arguments is also ignored. If the mortal saved are removed immediately at the second advent, who are the mortals who live in and populate the Millenniel Kingdom? I think each person must be assured in their own minds. God won’t ask us if we were pre-trib or post-trib, but He will know if we gave any thought to His Word or not. I guess that is why I consider it a non-essential doctrine.
Doug,
I understand Christ fulfilling all the OT law, but the fact that the work of salvation being called “The Atoning Works of Christ” is another way of referring to the doctrines of redemption, reconciliation, propitiation, regeneration, justification, imputation and being placed in Christ. Obviously these doctrines fulfilled the offerings I listed in #27. It does not make us Jewish. What I was asking you is this, “does God look at us and see our flesh or His Son?” I believe He sees His Son, thus, that is why we often call Him our covering, washed in the blood or whatever you call it. It is non-essential for me, but I sense that you consider the word “atonement” an essential doctrine. Is that correct?
MARANATHA
7. Comment by Jerry Teets
Ceseeley…if you really want an answer this site has answered it. But if you want me to answer you…click on my name and I will give you my answer. I do not want to divert this thread on a different issue.
8. Comment by Douglas Summers
Hi Debbie,
Atonement as you described above is a therological term that covers all that you stated…But what I wrote you in response to your first question about Christ atoneing for our sins…I stand by. He did not atone…but reconciled us…study what I wrote in the second half of Comment #31…what I wrote is correct..it is essential….All Doctrines are essential.
One who is not sure of a Doctrine should not teach it. Studying to show thy self approved requires a believer to seek God to confirm Doctrinal Truths. He will do it. That is part of the problem with the visible Church. They do not want to offend anyone, so they do not confirm the Truths.
You can tell those that do not agree with correct doctrine that they are in error…but you have to kno0w yourself for sure if it is correct. You do not argue…but if it is correct, then it is essential.
I have had my share of people that call themselves Christians, that did not believe the Bibical Doctrines that Christ had taught us….but after a period of time, because they were seeking the Truth, the planted seed produced it’s fruit….don’t compromise. Just plant the seed in Truth…and let God give the increase.
If you are not sure of a doctrine…then do not teach it. We do not live by bread alone, but by “every” word of God.
love you in the Lord 
)
In Christ
Doug
9. Comment by Bill S.
Simply, pride.
10. Comment by ceseeley
Thanks Doug, Debbie and Jerry for your help, it is much appreciated!
11. Comment by Ezra
I invite all to Google “Pretrib Expert John Walvoord Melts Ice.” Ezra
12. Comment by Debbie
Ezra,
All these things are only viewpoints. The article did little to persuade me. Guess I will ride the pre-trib hobby horse!! YEHAW!! Ultimately, we must believe what the Holy Spirit reveals to our human spirit. Neither Ice nor Walvoord can claim beyond a shadow of a doubt that their viewpoints are correct. The prophecy is unfulfilled. Let me ask you this? Are you married? Would you cast your bride into great suffering? Do you (agapao) and (phileo) her? If you blessed hope is in the world with Israel, enjoy that thought. As for Dr. Ice and myself, we will watch these events unfold from heaven.
MARANATHA
13. Comment by Ezra
But what if the bride casts adulterous looks at the world (Hollywood, money, sex, things, power, human reasoning etc.)? Jesus said that He WILL have a church without spot or wrinkle, and Daniel says that many will be tried and made perfect, and the Word also says that whom the Lord loves He chastens. Would you be talking about, or even thinking about, a rapture if you lived in China or India or Saudi Arabia? America is in a mess because for decades Christians didn’t get involved in politics or vote very much because it was listening to Lindsey etc. and waiting for an “imminent” rapture which, by the way, was invented in the 19th century by some fringe Britishers and which didn’t become a stronghold within American evangelicalism much before 1909! Read MacPherson’s book “The Rapture Plot” which you can even borrow thru inter-library loan at any library for a pittance. Google “Scholars Weigh My Research” to see what top scholars have said about his research of many years. Since you mentioned Ice, Google “Thomas Ice (Bloopers)” to find out why he accidentally left out 49 words when he reproduced Margaret Macdonald’s short revelation account! Isn’t it time to read on all sides of the rapture debate and listen to some real scholars? Ezra
14. Comment by Douglas Summers
Hi Ezra,
The real author is Christ. If you have to get your information of doctrines from other publishers or authors, of their beliefs….then you are subject to every wind of doctrine.
Those who purpose that there is no ‘catching up” or being “caught up” in the Lord….”in the air” are self willed worshipers. Have you tried asking The Lord this question?…or have you asked God to show you the TRUTH?
There are 7 judgments in the Scriptures. They all happen at different times and places. The coming of the Lord for His bride is just one of the beginning of those judgments.
You can believe and follow who you want to….but if you don’t Trust Christ….you are standing on the sand….sinking sand. This is not to badger you or chastise you…it is just the Truth.
In Christ
Doug
15. Comment by Debbie
Like I said, this is an ufulfilled prophecy. One must search the Scripture to determine one’s outlook. My closest study mates all have different viewpoints including pre, post and mid tribulation rapture. I find it non-essential and do not try to chide or persuade them. We have had this discussion many times before. Based on the Jewish wedding feast, the bride is the period known as Eryusin. The Father has chosen the bride (Shidukkhin), the contract has been made (Ketubah), the Son has made the bridal payment (Mohar) with His life, the bride and groom have been ritually immersed (Mikveh), the groom has left a bridal payment (Matan) the Holy Spirit, and has returned to begin building on to His Father’s home while His bride readys herself for marriage. She does not know when He will return. When the Father gives the word, He will proceed from His Father’s house to claim her for the ceremony by sounding the shofar. This is followed by a week of feasts, dancing and music given by the friends of the bridegroom. Now, during Eyrusin if the bride is unfaithful the groom may divorce her. This is much more legally binding than our engagement ceremony. Remember Joseph’s conundrum with Mary. I am not adulterous and wait patiently for my Groom. Believe what you like, but if my only hope is tribulation like the world has never seen before, then suicide is my option because “the dead in Christ are raised first.” Therefore, I reject the viewpoint. How in the world would I witness to anybody promising them great tribulation in Christ? There is a difference between suffering and “great tribulation” by the way. For me salvation and rapture go hand in hand. Those who are truly saved have divorced the world and are waiting in the heavenly realm anyway. Ask yourself, where am I? Either way, I know my God will hedge me in from all sides in ANY tribulation I go through…
MARANATHA
16. Comment by Debbie
You know the biggest problem I have with all of this, is it hearkens back to who is good enough? We can’t possible be good enough to avoid tribulation? Doug is right….you are either saved or you are not.
17. Comment by Douglas Summers
Hi Debbie,
I just thought of something. What is it that the saved in Jesus The Christ are saved from.????? It is the wrath of God. We are saved from the judgment of God upon all who are disobedient, self-willed and self righteous.
For God did not appoint us to wrath (or judgment),but to salvation (safety) through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (1 Thess.5:9-11). Notice that this Scripture comes soon after we meet Him in the air. )
In Christ
Doug
18. Comment by Debbie
Doug,
Seems everybody wants to point finger and say this person is Laodacean and this person is an adulterer, etc. So we end up aruguing about how good is good enough. Either one is declared “not guilty” from the wrath of the Judge or not. That part of salvation is not dependant on us. What is the purpose of the Bema judgment if we are all going to be judged in the tribulation? To each their own…
MARANATHA
19. Comment by Ezra
No one views the tribulation as a “hope” any more than a pregnant woman views labor pains as a “hope” even though she expects them to precede the birth. One minute a certain school of interpretation speaks of the so-called church/Israel dichotomy, or separation, and declares that those two groups are separate and can’t be mixed together. The next minute it says that there are the so-called stages of a “Jewish marriage” which apply to the “church” even though the Word itself doesn’t teach such a thing. Comments on message boards and blogs constantly reveal that many have definitely been influenced by man and not by the Bible for their prophetic views! In view of what the church believed for 18 centuries (Google “Famous Rapture Watchers”), and in view of what has happened to fellow believers around the world during our lifetime, why are we so quick to think that our baby-killing, Jesus-bashing, marriage-perverting, overly blessed but underly grateful American nation should somehow be exempted from what has happened to other countries that have fallen away from Christ? Isn’t it safer to be ready for trouble (if it doesn’t come) than not be ready for it (if it does come)? Before anyone answers, check your car to see if you have a spare tire (even if you think you probably won’t have a flat tire)! Lord bless. Just my two cents. Ezra
PS – If you can go to Google and type in “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” and feel comfortable with the state of things in American evangelicalism today, then I have little more to say.
20. Comment by Douglas Summers
Ezra,
The Church (body of Christ) and the United States are two different things. And you still want us to read someone else’s views. Interpretation of Scripture is not for the idle or curious…..it is for the body of Christ.
The United States Government is still part of the Roman Empire. Rome never ceased to exist, it was just broken up into smaller entities. Next time you watch the news or C-span, look at the wall behind the Senate…tell me what you see.
The anti-Christ could very well come from the United States? But at any rate, all those who predicted the rapture before in history were cults and did not hold to the Doctrine of Christ, for there was one thing that had to happen before the rapture was possible, and that was about 63 years ago….do you know what it was?
In Christ
Doug
21. Comment by Debbie
I have to agree with Doug. The Bride and the United States are two separate things. Is there a reason that you lump them together? Israel and the church are separate. The Jewish wedding ceremony is a type. You understand type and anti-type? Jesus was Jewish. Why would His wedding be anything else? Are you amillennielist? If so, then that explains why we are in disagreement. Personally, I am not a baby killer, Jesus bashing, marriage perverting Christian, although I am overly blessed by world standards. There are none who are without sin and there are those who will never repent. Doug, I know the answer and you think that event would have put an end to the amillenniel viewpoint. Maybe the rebuilding of the temple will do it! Let’s see what happens this year. It is all so clear to me, but it is said 60% of Christian churches in America are amillenniel.
MARANATHA
22. Comment by Douglas Summers
Hi Debbie,
Scripture and the teachings of Christ and the Apostles show a calling out of Christ body before judgment….but, even if the Lord would do something else…it does not shake my faith in Him!
Why?….Because I have built up a stong faith? Or I’am more dedicated to Christ? Because I go to Church more? Or read my Bible more?…No!, it is none of these!……But it is because Christ, who is faithful, has given me faith!…for my faith rest upon God…yes, even our faith is a gift from God.
Read Luke 24:13-32. This is how believing Christ brings an increase of Faith from God…Let me know if you can see it.
In Christ
Doug
